Dawncrafts

[Nicholas Billingham]

Brilliant boats, got me onto the water some decades ago and provided a
valuable source of raw material for my book Inland Cruisers, Care &
Maintenance. Probably best not to drill a hole in the bottom, 'cos it will
sink, but the cabin has a floor which forms a second bilge and collects
water from an inadequately sealed front deck/well. Eventually the boat sits
somewhat lower in the water than you would expect.

Gas locker is a nightmare since the walls have to be fireproof, which means
a steel liner and fireproof drain pipe. Outboards are fine and easy to
service ( just fork out loads of cash), but the storage of the petrol tank
has to be the same as for gas bottles. Front windscreen fades and clouds
with time but is fairly easy to replace. Wooden rubbing strakes along the
hull sides are always a problem and since they were screwed on from the
inside during manufacture, leave holes in the hull once broken, especially
by the bows.

I absolutely adored my dawncraft and defy anyone to say they aren't the very
best way to get afloat. Just don't share a lock with a hire boat.

TTFN

Nick B

[John Cartmell]

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Brilliant boats, got me onto the water some decades ago and provided a
valuable source of raw material for my book Inland Cruisers, Care &
Maintenance.

14.99 from Amazon? It sounds like it should be essential reading so I'll
get my order off for that...

[14.99 new - up to 26.08 second hand!!]

and I've also found The New Inland Boat Owner's Book by Andy Burnett and
Emrhys Barrell's The Inland Waterways Manual and two Sheila Davenport
books Canal & River Cruising: the IWA Manual and Canal and River Cruising
(Know the Game series)

any recommendations regarding these?

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Probably best not to drill a hole in the bottom, 'cos it will sink, but
the cabin has a floor which forms a second bilge and collects water from
an inadequately sealed front deck/well. Eventually the boat sits
somewhat lower in the water than you would expect.

There is a step in the cockpit and water seeps through the step from that
second bilge. I've been told that there should be free drainage into the
cockpit - and that's where it has been suggested I drill some holes to
allow that such drainage [you note my reluctance!].

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Gas locker is a nightmare since the walls have to be fireproof, which
means a steel liner and fireproof drain pipe.

Oops. None of this exists. Does your ICC&M give the specs required?

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Outboards are fine and easy to service ( just fork out loads of cash),

Yes - I've seen the film "The Money Pit" ;-(

Post by Nicholas Billingham
but the storage of the petrol tank has to be the same as for gas bottles.

Oops again.

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Front windscreen fades and clouds with time but is fairly easy to
replace.

'Fade' isn't a strong enough word. It does let in *some* light! Is it easy
and inexpensive to replace? And how?

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Wooden rubbing strakes along the hull sides are always a problem and
since they were screwed on from the inside during manufacture, leave
holes in the hull once broken, especially by the bows.

I wondered how they were attached. How can you replace them - and is it
best to do it when (or before) you replace internal fixtures?

Post by Nicholas Billingham
I absolutely adored my dawncraft and defy anyone to say they aren't the
very best way to get afloat. Just don't share a lock with a hire boat.

I'm just hoping we can get enough done this month to allow for a few day
trips whilst the weather is warm (I didn't say fine!).

[martin]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:54:46 +0100, John Cartmell

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Brilliant boats, got me onto the water some decades ago and provided a
valuable source of raw material for my book Inland Cruisers, Care &
Maintenance.

14.99 from Amazon? It sounds like it should be essential reading so I'll
get my order off for that...
[14.99 new - up to 26.08 second hand!!]

Cheap at half the price? :-)

Have you searched in online UK second hand bookshops, using
www.abe.com ?

It's surprising how cheap some books are second hand ( except from
Amazon)

[martin]

Post by martin
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:54:46 +0100, John Cartmell

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Brilliant boats, got me onto the water some decades ago and provided a
valuable source of raw material for my book Inland Cruisers, Care &
Maintenance.

14.99 from Amazon? It sounds like it should be essential reading so I'll
get my order off for that...
[14.99 new - up to 26.08 second hand!!]

GBP 6 at
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bx=off&sts=t&ds=50&bi=0&n=200000169&tn=Inland+Cruisers%2C+Care+%26&sortby=2

[Alan N Estherby]

<snip>

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Probably best not to drill a hole in the bottom, 'cos it will sink, but
the cabin has a floor which forms a second bilge and collects water from
an inadequately sealed front deck/well. Eventually the boat sits
somewhat lower in the water than you would expect.

There is a step in the cockpit and water seeps through the step from that
second bilge. I've been told that there should be free drainage into the
cockpit - and that's where it has been suggested I drill some holes to
allow that such drainage [you note my reluctance!].

<another snip>

I am not in any way familiar with the Dawncraft, so apologise in advance if
the following is irrelevant, however better safe than sorry:

In some craft the boat or cabin floor forms a sealed void above the main
hull, thus adding a degree of built-in buoyancy in the event of being
broached; cutting into this can remove this buoyancy, with unexpected and
possibly disastrous effects.

An open sport boat was lost not so long ago on Loch Ryan, with loss of more
than one life, with this sort of thing being a contributory factor (see
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_maritimesafety/documents/page/dft_masafety_028374.pdf )
- its a lengthy PDF but worth a look to explain what I mean - in this case
the hole was cut to fit a bilge pump, believing this would improve the
safety of the boat, when in fact the reverse was the case.

As I say, this may not be the case with the Dawncraft, but worth looking out
for.

All the best,

Alan

[Brian Dominic]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:54:46 +0100, John Cartmell

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Gas locker is a nightmare since the walls have to be fireproof, which
means a steel liner and fireproof drain pipe.

Oops. None of this exists. Does your ICC&M give the specs required?

The other solution (much used on cruisers) is to put it in a cradle on
the outside of the transom - complies, as any leakage is automatically
outside the boat!

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
but the storage of the petrol tank has to be the same as for gas bottles.

Oops again.

I thought this would only apply to petrol (or petroil) tanks for
inboards - the "portable" tanks for outboards are OK.


Brian L Dominic

Web Sites:
Canals: http://www.nbrumpus.co.uk
Friends of the Cromford Canal: http://www.cromfordcanal.org.uk
Mid-Derbyshire Light Railway: http://www.mdlr.co.uk

[Boat Safety Scheme Office]

Post by Brian Dominic

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Gas locker is a nightmare since the walls have to be fireproof, which
means a steel liner and fireproof drain pipe.

Oops. None of this exists. Does your ICC&M give the specs required?

See http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/part7lpginstallations_97.asp
for further info

Post by Brian Dominic

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
but the storage of the petrol tank has to be the same as for gas bottles.

I thought this would only apply to petrol (or petroil) tanks for
inboards - the "portable" tanks for outboards are OK.

from Part 5 (http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/petrolstorage_79.asp)
"Explosions can happen if flammable vapour from petrol is ignited, and
the presence of escaped fuel will always cause a fire to escalate.
Fuel containers must be made of appropriate materials to reduce the
risk of leakage. The container construction must conform to the
requirements of the Petroleum Spirit (Motor Vehicles, etc.)
Regulations 1929 (S R & O 1929/952) or the Petroleum Spirit (Plastic
Containers) Regulations S.I. 1982 No. 630.

"To avoid petrol leaking into the boat from fuel containers, they must
be stowed
in accordance with Standards 7.2 through to 7.8, e.g. in a fire
resistant drained locker. This will allow fuel or fuel vapours to
drain overboard, rather than into the boat. [5.4]"

Feel free to get in touch directly with BSS Office for technical
support vis-a-vis the Scheme's requirements or visit us at the
National (on the BW/Waterscape stand).

Rob @ BSS Office
Go boating - Stay safe

[John Cartmell]

or visit us at the National (on the BW/Waterscape stand

I'll see you there. Many thanks,

[Nicholas Billingham]

It may sound a bit dull and boring, but as a journalist I've covered one or
two of the accidents involving petrol in cabin cruisers. The risks are not
some hypothetical scenario but some bloke getting his face blown off, wife
scarred for life and they never found the dog. God alone knows why diesel
outboards are so difficult to source in this country. The rest of the world
seems to be able to get hold of them. Petrol is not good in boats, full
stop, and once one cabin cruiser sets on fire, it has a nasty habit of
torching all the ones around it, as per Mon & Brec some years ago when one
boat managed to set on fire and another five were destroyed before the fire
brigade managed to bring it under control. BSS regulations about petrol
seem utterly over the top at first, but once you've seen what happens when
petrol goes wrong, you can entirely understand them, and probably vow never
to have petrol on board again.... including petrol generators too.

Oh well, rant over, brownie points from BSS, I'll find out which issue of
Canal & Riverboat has my article about changing a Dawncraft windscreen and
post it tomorrow. The job is pretty straightforward ( drill out old rivets,
split frame into the 2 constituent parts, remove old plastic for template to
cut new bit, install new bit in silicon bed, re-install frame on new mastic
bed and rivet or bolt back in situ). Job done.

TTFN
Nick B

Post by Boat Safety Scheme Office

Post by Brian Dominic

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Gas locker is a nightmare since the walls have to be fireproof, which
means a steel liner and fireproof drain pipe.

Oops. None of this exists. Does your ICC&M give the specs required?

See http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/part7lpginstallations_97.asp
for further info

Post by Brian Dominic

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
but the storage of the petrol tank has to be the same as for gas bottles.

I thought this would only apply to petrol (or petroil) tanks for
inboards - the "portable" tanks for outboards are OK.

from Part 5 (http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/petrolstorage_79.asp)
"Explosions can happen if flammable vapour from petrol is ignited, and
the presence of escaped fuel will always cause a fire to escalate.
Fuel containers must be made of appropriate materials to reduce the
risk of leakage. The container construction must conform to the
requirements of the Petroleum Spirit (Motor Vehicles, etc.)
Regulations 1929 (S R & O 1929/952) or the Petroleum Spirit (Plastic
Containers) Regulations S.I. 1982 No. 630.
"To avoid petrol leaking into the boat from fuel containers, they must
be stowed
in accordance with Standards 7.2 through to 7.8, e.g. in a fire
resistant drained locker. This will allow fuel or fuel vapours to
drain overboard, rather than into the boat. [5.4]"
Feel free to get in touch directly with BSS Office for technical
support vis-a-vis the Scheme's requirements or visit us at the
National (on the BW/Waterscape stand).
Go boating - Stay safe

[martin]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:55:13 GMT, "Nicholas Billingham"

Post by Nicholas Billingham
It may sound a bit dull and boring, but as a journalist I've covered one or
two of the accidents involving petrol in cabin cruisers. The risks are not
some hypothetical scenario but some bloke getting his face blown off, wife
scarred for life and they never found the dog. God alone knows why diesel
outboards are so difficult to source in this country. The rest of the world
seems to be able to get hold of them. Petrol is not good in boats, full
stop, and once one cabin cruiser sets on fire, it has a nasty habit of
torching all the ones around it, as per Mon & Brec some years ago when one
boat managed to set on fire and another five were destroyed before the fire
brigade managed to bring it under control. BSS regulations about petrol
seem utterly over the top at first, but once you've seen what happens when
petrol goes wrong, you can entirely understand them, and probably vow never
to have petrol on board again.... including petrol generators too.

That was my reaction after having seen a large motor boat explode
quite near to us. The boat was towed out to sea by the harbour master,
despite the fact that the gas bottles went up in great sheets of white
flame, whilst he was doing it. He should have got a medal.
No gas or petrol in my boat

[tony]

Post by martin
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:55:13 GMT, "Nicholas Billingham"
[snip]
That was my reaction after having seen a large motor boat explode
quite near to us. The boat was towed out to sea by the harbour master,
despite the fact that the gas bottles went up in great sheets of white
flame, whilst he was doing it. He should have got a medal.
No gas or petrol in my boat

While I understand the potential dangers of petrol, I have seen
vehicle fires which are also dramatic, and caused by the use of
both petrol and diesel. Furthermore, I have seen the results of fires
on diesel engined narrowboats.

What it really means is that sensible precautions need to be taken.
I used a petrol engined outboard for nigh on thirty years without
incident. Basic precautions were (a) all fuel in proper fuel tanks (I
carried two so that I was never tempted to refill on board), (b) always refuelled
the tanks well away from the boat, which is easy as you carried the tanks
to the pumps, (c) never changed tanks while any gas rings on,
(d) no smoking permitted on board, (e) no fridge, and (f) no deep fat frying.

Being official Honda fuel tanks, they could be kept in one of the
lockers adjacent to the engine with two small drain holes in case of a leak.

Most fires that I know of were caused by refuelling on the boat,
the use of gas fridges, or doing something particularly foolish like
changing a Camping Gaz cylinder while the kettle was on....

[martin]

Post by tony
Most fires that I know of were caused by refuelling on the boat,
the use of gas fridges, or doing something particularly foolish like
changing a Camping Gaz cylinder while the kettle was on....

The one I saw was caused by somebody in a marina refueling the boat,
not paying attention.Petrol overflowed into the bilges. Owner started
the engine and <BANG>

[David Long]

Post by martin
That was my reaction after having seen a large motor boat explode
quite near to us. The boat was towed out to sea by the harbour master,
despite the fact that the gas bottles went up in great sheets of white
flame, whilst he was doing it. He should have got a medal.
No gas or petrol in my boat

I suppose your caught the closure on the Moselle near Pont-a-Mousson
caused by a fire in the engine room of a 1k peniche? A fire began in the
engine room whilst it was in Blenton lock - as the pompiers were dealing
with it, something caused forward gear to be engaged, and the peniche
thumped the bottom gates of the lock, causing damage which closed the
lock for over a fortnight. So diesel has its problems, too.

[John Cartmell]

The job is pretty straightforward ( drill out old rivets, split frame
into the 2 constituent parts, remove old plastic for template to cut new
bit, install new bit in silicon bed, re-install frame on new mastic bed
and rivet or bolt back in situ). Job done.

Ah! *That* sort of straighforward! ;-(

[Ken Ketchup]

Agree with all your sentiments about Dawncraft and a way into boating Nick
but I would also pitch in for Norman in much the same way. I'm biased
though.....

Trevor

www.normanboats.co.uk



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[Nicholas Billingham]

Definitely agree about Normans, I just happened to pick on a dawncraft
because it had better headroom than a Norman, even though the hull was a
lot thinner. That said, the times I brained myself on the bit at the front
of the cabin ceiling doesn't bear thinking about. I still firmly believe
that any potential boater should start with a small cruiser before going
silly and spending a fortune on a narrow boat. That way you can get on the
water when you're young enough to really enjoy it. I bought a 16' wooden
cabin cruiser when I was 18, and had a whale of a time, though I won't
divulge details to protect the innocent.

A couple of points.. petrol vapour behaves exactly like propane gas, it
sinks and pools in the bilges, forming a potentially explosive problem. One
spark and the boat is history... and a few holier than thou articles in the
boating press. Storing gas and petrol tanks on a transom rack is fine if
you can be sure that they are protected from impact by another boat or
vandalism by some little oik. A surveyor needs to confirm that the design
of this is okay.

As I mentioned the wooden rubbing strakes were originally attached by screws
from the INSIDE and can leave small holes when they rust away.... no they
didn't use stainless steel screws, we're talking dawncraft here. The
boats were made of several glass fibre mouldings screwed together. The hull
is one, and the top is another, the cabin floor is a third and this created
a void between the floor and hull. possibly for bouyancy, though I doubt
it. the seal between these latter two was not perfect on my boat, and many
others I've encountered, but I know of no one who was brave enough to drill
into this void. when my boat was out of the water for the winter I tilted
it so that it was stern down a little and eventually all the water came out.
( over several months). This stopped the apparent leak at the forward end
of the cabin floor.

Dawncrafts and other small cruisers are marvellous for DIY but I've seen
some really daft things over the years, the worst was storing the petrol
tank on top of the battery, it was insulated of course.... by a sheet of
newspaper. The tank had rusted because the paper held moisture, and the
paper was rapidly disappearing because of said moisture, the moment when the
battery shorted through the bottom of the tank was only one bump away.
Hence I really would recommend getting the latest BW notes on Boat Safety
Certificates and following them to the letter. I know petrol is a pain in
the butt to get to comply, but if it goes wrong it is ghastly.

My Inland Cruisers book was taken off my publishers list some years ago
because BW safety certification was so stringent that virtually everyone
sold their cruisers and bought narrow boats ( or gave up boating), Horrid
economic truth was no cruisers, no sales of books for cruisers. Canal &
Riverboat Magazine book club still has some left for sale... I believe.

I wonder about the socio economics of boating sometimes. If we want future
generations of boaters, there really has to be an affordable way to get
afloat suitable for people in their 20's ( preferably younger). The
waterways cannot survive solely with retired people pottering about in
£100,000 boats. I did more miles in my dawncraft in a month than I did in a
year with my narrowboat some years later. It's the old 'use it or lose it'
debate... and if it's too expensive to start boating until you are fifty ,
well we won't have a canal system left... just a set of picturesque Trad
boats sitting on a silted up ditch. Grrr, I'm getting politcal now

Night night

Nick B

Post by Ken Ketchup
Agree with all your sentiments about Dawncraft and a way into boating Nick
but I would also pitch in for Norman in much the same way. I'm biased
though.....
Trevor
www.normanboats.co.uk
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[John Cartmell]

Post by Nicholas Billingham
My Inland Cruisers book was taken off my publishers list some years ago
because BW safety certification was so stringent that virtually everyone
sold their cruisers and bought narrow boats ( or gave up boating),
Horrid economic truth was no cruisers, no sales of books for cruisers.
Canal & Riverboat Magazine book club still has some left for sale... I
believe.

Apparently they have sold out - but they re-directed me to the IWA who tell
me that they expect new stocks in on 2 Sept. Reprint?

[Nicholas Billingham]

It had better not be a reprint, I haven't been paid.

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Nicholas Billingham
My Inland Cruisers book was taken off my publishers list some years ago
because BW safety certification was so stringent that virtually everyone
sold their cruisers and bought narrow boats ( or gave up boating),
Horrid economic truth was no cruisers, no sales of books for cruisers.
Canal & Riverboat Magazine book club still has some left for sale... I
believe.

Apparently they have sold out - but they re-directed me to the IWA who tell
me that they expect new stocks in on 2 Sept. Reprint?
--
Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com
Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines

[David Long]

Post by Nicholas Billingham
My Inland Cruisers book was taken off my publishers list some years ago
because BW safety certification was so stringent that virtually everyone
sold their cruisers and bought narrow boats ( or gave up boating), Horrid
economic truth was no cruisers, no sales of books for cruisers.

Try translating it into Dutch or German - there are thousands of their
cruisers clogging up the French waterways.

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Canal &
Riverboat Magazine book club still has some left for sale... I believe.

I bought my copy a while ago from a local remaindered books chain. I
think they still have an odd copy in.

Post by Nicholas Billingham
I wonder about the socio economics of boating sometimes. If we want future
generations of boaters, there really has to be an affordable way to get
afloat suitable for people in their 20's ( preferably younger). The
waterways cannot survive solely with retired people pottering about in
£100,000 boats. I did more miles in my dawncraft in a month than I did in a
year with my narrowboat some years later. It's the old 'use it or lose it'
debate... and if it's too expensive to start boating until you are fifty ,
well we won't have a canal system left... just a set of picturesque Trad
boats sitting on a silted up ditch. Grrr, I'm getting politcal now

One of the noticeable features of boating in France was the lack of
French people enjoying their wonderful system, despite its relative
cheapness (Licences less than a third of the cost of ours), and the ease
of using the system (all locks manned or automatic). The explanation was
simple enough - those with the resources to boat would have their boats
on the Med.. They tended to be the better-off.
In the last couple of years, however, I've noticed more French afloat -
with many of them in ex-hire boats, bought far more cheaply than the
cruisers the Dutch and Germans swan about in. The availability of these
ex-hire craft may be bringing a new group to the French canals, which
bears out your thesis.

They're needed - French communities, as well as the Government, invest
heavily in the system. If it's only for the benefit of us foreigners,
the political will to continue won't be supported by actual voters in
France with an interest in the canals. Which also applies here -
entry-level boating has to be cheap to attract support throughout
society.

[martin]

Post by David Long

Post by Nicholas Billingham
My Inland Cruisers book was taken off my publishers list some years ago
because BW safety certification was so stringent that virtually everyone
sold their cruisers and bought narrow boats ( or gave up boating), Horrid
economic truth was no cruisers, no sales of books for cruisers.

Try translating it into Dutch or German - there are thousands of their
cruisers clogging up the French waterways.

Good! :-)

No point in translating it into Dutch, they are too tight to buy stuff
like that :-)

Post by David Long

Post by Nicholas Billingham
Canal &
Riverboat Magazine book club still has some left for sale... I believe.

I bought my copy a while ago from a local remaindered books chain. I
think they still have an odd copy in.

and as I pointed out www.abe.com have some cheap second hand copies.

Post by David Long

Post by Nicholas Billingham
I wonder about the socio economics of boating sometimes. If we want future
generations of boaters, there really has to be an affordable way to get
afloat suitable for people in their 20's ( preferably younger). The
waterways cannot survive solely with retired people pottering about in
£100,000 boats. I did more miles in my dawncraft in a month than I did in a
year with my narrowboat some years later. It's the old 'use it or lose it'
debate... and if it's too expensive to start boating until you are fifty ,
well we won't have a canal system left... just a set of picturesque Trad
boats sitting on a silted up ditch. Grrr, I'm getting politcal now

One of the noticeable features of boating in France was the lack of
French people enjoying their wonderful system, despite its relative
cheapness (Licences less than a third of the cost of ours), and the ease
of using the system (all locks manned or automatic). The explanation was
simple enough - those with the resources to boat would have their boats
on the Med.. They tended to be the better-off.

It's too hot on the Med. Most boats there spend their lives tied up on
a mooring.

Post by David Long
In the last couple of years, however, I've noticed more French afloat -
with many of them in ex-hire boats, bought far more cheaply than the
cruisers the Dutch and Germans swan about in.

Don't let jealousy cloud your objectivity :-)

Both the Dutch and the Germans build very nice steel/GRP/aluminium
cruisers.

There's a local Dutch bloke, who took early retirement, who takes his
boat from NL to the South of France via canals and the Rhone in
May/June and brings it back in September every year.