Discussion:
Lidl safety equipment deals
(too old to reply)
Adrian Stott
2007-01-26 09:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
useful to boaters:

Gas alarm £9.99
Fire blanket £7.99 (don't know whether kite-marked)
First aid kit £14.99
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
etc.

Adrian

Adrian Stott
07956-299966
Brian Holt
2007-01-26 10:04:04 UTC
Permalink
"Adrian Stott" <***@spam.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
: useful to boaters:
:
snip

: Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
:
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable for
use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants

Visit this site and help save our waterways
http://www.savethewaterways.org.uk/
Ann
2007-01-26 10:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
: Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable for
use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
Not long after the canal society acquired Bluebell and set about restoring
her, Lidl had a similar offer (not as cheap though) and we bought
extinguishers. A later inspection of them indicated that the marking on them
didn't appear in the BSS guide. I contacted the BSS office and an
intermittent correspondence has been ongoing for a long time now. The
extinguishers were made by Delta and carry an EU marking and the BSS office
tell me they are trying to establish if that marking is to a high enough
standard for the UK. As we are almost at the stage of getting the boat
inspected for its BSS, we bought more fire extinguishers which did carry the
proper markings. We can still carry the Lidl ones but we must also have
sufficient numbers of approved ones over and above them
We are now awash with fire extinguishers which is probably a good thing but
I wish we hadn't been so naive and wasted our money on the lidl
extinguishers.

Ann
--
Ann and Iain Street
NB Gamebird; One tenth NB Copperkins11
Web site http://www.nbgamebird.co.uk
Scottish Inland Waterways Association - http://www.siwa.org.uk
Bridge 19-40 Canal Society - http://www.bridge19-40.org.uk
Brian Holt
2007-01-26 10:43:52 UTC
Permalink
"Ann" <***@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...
:
: "Brian Holt" <***@notharnser.info> wrote in message
: news:45b9d236$0$633$***@news.astraweb.com...
: >
snip
: Not long after the canal society acquired Bluebell and set about
restoring
: her, Lidl had a similar offer (not as cheap though) and we bought
: extinguishers. A later inspection of them indicated that the marking on
them
: didn't appear in the BSS guide. I contacted the BSS office and an
: intermittent correspondence has been ongoing for a long time now.
snip
It would be interesting to see if any boat builders in main land Europe
were fitting extinguishers with these markings on new boats to comply with
the RCD which I understand is a Europe wide directive. If so then if they
are acceptable for that I don't see how the BSS could refuse to accept
them.
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants

Visit this site and help save our waterways
http://www.savethewaterways.org.uk/
Uncle Marvo
2007-01-26 11:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
We are now awash with fire extinguishers which is probably a good
thing but I wish we hadn't been so naive and wasted our money on the
lidl extinguishers.
I pay about £15 for a small extinguisher, which I know will work. And I've
been on firefighting courses at work, which are ace cos you get half a day
off and get to play about with pyro-stuff, but we had an extinguisher which
failed to operate. Imagine that when you've just put down your newspaper on
the gas stove which you forgot to turn off after breakfast! Anywhere in the
boat is within easy reach of at least two extinguishers.

Always worth keeping those old illegal Halon jobs, too, IMHO!
Tony Brooks
2007-01-26 11:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uncle Marvo
Post by Ann
We are now awash with fire extinguishers which is probably a good
thing but I wish we hadn't been so naive and wasted our money on the
lidl extinguishers.
I pay about £15 for a small extinguisher, which I know will work. And I've
been on firefighting courses at work, which are ace cos you get half a day
off and get to play about with pyro-stuff, but we had an extinguisher
which failed to operate. Imagine that when you've just put down your
newspaper on the gas stove which you forgot to turn off after breakfast!
Anywhere in the boat is within easy reach of at least two extinguishers.
Always worth keeping those old illegal Halon jobs, too, IMHO!
Yes - saves putting the finger you have jus burnt by touching said gas hob
in water. I think we used more self- treating welding burns that fighting
fires (never fought a fire with one). :-)
--
Tony Brooks
www.TB-Training.co.uk

Maintenance & Electrical training for ordinary boaters
Uncle Marvo
2007-01-26 11:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Brooks
Post by Uncle Marvo
Post by Ann
We are now awash with fire extinguishers which is probably a good
thing but I wish we hadn't been so naive and wasted our money on
the lidl extinguishers.
I pay about £15 for a small extinguisher, which I know will work.
And I've been on firefighting courses at work, which are ace cos you
get half a day off and get to play about with pyro-stuff, but we had
an extinguisher which failed to operate. Imagine that when you've
just put down your newspaper on the gas stove which you forgot to
turn off after breakfast! Anywhere in the boat is within easy reach
of at least two extinguishers. Always worth keeping those old illegal
Halon jobs, too, IMHO!
Yes - saves putting the finger you have jus burnt by touching said
gas hob in water. I think we used more self- treating welding burns
that fighting fires (never fought a fire with one). :-)
I put out somebody's car engine fire with one (exact location snipped) that
happened to be in my boot at the time. Trust me, they work. But hold your
breath while you use it.
Brian Holt
2007-01-26 21:02:29 UTC
Permalink
"Uncle Marvo" <***@deletethisbitfortescue.org.uk> wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...

: I pay about £15 for a small extinguisher, which I know will work.

And how do you know that, have you tried it.
If your fire course was any good they would have instructed you to test
your extinguisher before tackling the fire. Even the most expensive/best
maintained/most reputable brands fail from time to time.
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants

Visit this site and help save our waterways
http://www.savethewaterways.org.uk/
:
Uncle Marvo
2007-01-29 08:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Holt
Post by Uncle Marvo
I pay about £15 for a small extinguisher, which I know will work.
And how do you know that, have you tried it.
If your fire course was any good they would have instructed you to
test your extinguisher before tackling the fire. Even the most
expensive/best maintained/most reputable brands fail from time to
time.
For "know" read "know has a fighting chance". No, I haven't tried it,
because I didn't want to empty it! But I have more than one to hand. I
suspect that it is possible that all of them will fail when I need them, but
the more I have the less chance of that happening, IMHO.

Also IMHO the best way to point an extinguisher is at a fire, rather than up
oin the air to see if it works first :-)

I shall tell Chubb Fire that their course is no good, anyway.
Brian Holt
2007-01-29 09:40:51 UTC
Permalink
:

"Uncle Marvo" <***@deletethisbitfortescue.org.uk> wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...
: In reply to Brian Holt (***@notharnser.info) who wrote this in
: 45ba6c3c$0$27330$***@news.astraweb.com, I, Marvo, say :
:
: > "Uncle Marvo" <***@deletethisbitfortescue.org.uk> wrote in message
: > news:***@mid.individual.net...
: >

:
: Also IMHO the best way to point an extinguisher is at a fire, rather
than up
: oin the air to see if it works first :-)
:
: I shall tell Chubb Fire that their course is no good, anyway.
:
I would, I would not get anywhere near a fire without first testing the
extinguisher, I don't want to find out it doesn't work when I'm in the
same room as the fire.
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants

Visit this site and help save our waterways
http://www.savethewaterways.org.uk/
:
Alastair
2007-01-29 18:22:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:40:51 -0000, "Brian Holt"
Post by Brian Holt
I would, I would not get anywhere near a fire without first testing the
extinguisher, I don't want to find out it doesn't work when I'm in the
same room as the fire.
I thought the reason for an extinguisher on a boat was for when you
already were in the same room as the fire, to delay the spread while
you get out. For this reason I put more faith in the operation of my
fire blankets (of which I have several).


--
Alastair
Brian Holt
2007-01-29 19:36:32 UTC
Permalink
"Alastair" <***@as4jg.freeuk.com> wrote in message news:***@news.metronet.co.uk...
: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:40:51 -0000, "Brian Holt"
: <***@notharnser.info> wrote:
:
: >:
: >I would, I would not get anywhere near a fire without first testing the
: >extinguisher, I don't want to find out it doesn't work when I'm in the
: >same room as the fire.
: >
: >
:
: I thought the reason for an extinguisher on a boat was for when you
: already were in the same room as the fire, to delay the spread while
: you get out. For this reason I put more faith in the operation of my
: fire blankets (of which I have several).
:

Here here
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants

Visit this site and help save our waterways
http://www.savethewaterways.org.uk/
unknown
2007-01-29 19:13:36 UTC
Permalink
...I would not get anywhere near a fire without first testing the
extinguisher, I don't want to find out it doesn't work when I'm in the
same room as the fire.
The latest safety training (for buildings) is that "portable" fire
extinguishers aren't meant for fighting fires. They are there to help
you make a safe exit - then you raise the alarm. Therefore, there's no
need to test the extinguisher. If it's dry powder, you may invert the
appliance first, so that any settling of contents is mitigated.

You really shouldn't (re)enter a room with a fire burning. Smoke can
kill in seconds - not minutes.
--
MatSav
Peter Neville
2007-01-27 12:36:53 UTC
Permalink
On 26 Jan, 11:16, "Uncle Marvo"
snip>
Post by Uncle Marvo
Always worth keeping those old illegal Halon jobs, too, IMHO!
The good old Halon jobs, filled with CFC's mind you I suppose CO2 is
just as bad. So are fires, full of unfriendly gases. The environment
doesn't stand a chance against Health & Safety Legislation.
Of course Uncle M you are quite correct in saying they are illegal as
the BSS confirms here and tells us how to get rid of them.
http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/Defra-
Halononleisureboatsleafletoct05.pdf

But our friends across the pond quite naturally take a different view,
well they would wouldn't they. No ban here, they actively re-cycle
the stuff arguing that there is no safe way to dispose of the gas
effectively. Better to re-cycle and let it off in small quantities
when the need arises. What's more they fill aircraft fire systems with
it saying that there is nothing quite like it for putting out fires.
Read all about the virtues of Halon here. http://www.h3r.com/halon/
faq.htm Please note the page says its legal, for those that skip
read it means America.

I suppose it begs the question how effectively did we and Europe
dispose of the gases we have recalled and banned ??

Putting a fire out with any type of extinguisher is not only dependant
on what you squirt on the fire but more importantly how the person
doing the squirting uses the thing. For anyone who has not used a fire
extinguisher, coping with the situation where there is a need to use
one let alone figure out how to discharge the thing effectively, can
be daunting. Which is why I advocate going to any of those public do's
the Fire Brigade have in the summer months at fairs and the like.
Better still buy a cheap Lidl one and discharge it. See how you get on
with it.

Getting back to the BSS and extinguishers. When I had a boat I
complied with the BSS, in fact I complied before they brought their
rules out. Personally however, I would make every effort to make sure
that in a fire situation the last thing I would pick up to try and
extinguish any fire would be a powder extinguisher. My reasons are as
follows.

1. They are messy, I mean horrendously messy. OK they might do the job
but there is the clear up afterwards if you have been fortunate
enough. Some might argue after the exclusion clauses in the insurance
it might have been better to let it burn.

2. Dry powder extinguishers can be prone to compacting over a period.
Anyone who is familiar with Materials Handling will tell you one
method of filling a container with say a powder like product is to use
vibration. This settles the product rapidly for production packing
purposes. Naturally anti caking agents may be used, something like
Magnesium Stearate is popular in food stuffs to make it flow. But the
addition of that creates a mixture and yes you've guessed it over a
period of time vibration will also separate a mixture.

However we cheerfully hang dry powder extinguishers on the bulkheads
of our narrowboats and then turn on our totally vibration free engines
(I think not) and trundle along safe in the knowledge that alls well.
But is it ?? I don't know and I'm not suggesting for a minute that any
extinguisher sold will behave like that but it might. Remember time
wasted fiddling about with a faulty extinguisher may cost you dearly.

My answer is along the lines of Uncle Marvo, only I used to have CO2
extinguishers onboard. A couple of those and you'd blow the fire out.
When I sold the boat they (extinguishers) went with me not the boat.

Cheers, Peter
Taking a Practical Approach to H & S, not just going on a course to
read & talk about it.
What's more I have the missing fingers to prove it ;-))
Peter Neville
2007-01-27 12:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Neville
On 26 Jan, 11:16, "Uncle Marvo"
snip>
SNIP Sorry about that stupid Google news reader trunkated the link
Link should be:
http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/Defra-
Halononleisureboatsleafletoct05.pdf
SNIP>AND
http://www.h3r.com/halon/faq.htm

Cheers Peter.
Tim Leech
2007-01-29 08:52:39 UTC
Permalink
On 27 Jan 2007 04:36:53 -0800, "Peter Neville" <***@toadstone.com>
wrote:
<snip>
Post by Peter Neville
My answer is along the lines of Uncle Marvo, only I used to have CO2
extinguishers onboard. A couple of those and you'd blow the fire out.
When I sold the boat they (extinguishers) went with me not the boat.
Cheers, Peter
CO2 extinguishers are great in their place, and I always have at least
one to hand whenever I'm welding on a boat & there's any risk of fire.
They do have their downsides, though, and the one to be aware of is
that they're not good for oil or fat fires, especially the good old
chip pan fire, because they can make matters worse by blowing burning
oil around the place.
I agree about the awful mess from dry powder though.

Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Vintage diesel engine service
Uncle Marvo
2007-01-29 09:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Leech
<snip>
Post by Peter Neville
My answer is along the lines of Uncle Marvo, only I used to have CO2
extinguishers onboard. A couple of those and you'd blow the fire out.
When I sold the boat they (extinguishers) went with me not the boat.
Cheers, Peter
CO2 extinguishers are great in their place, and I always have at least
one to hand whenever I'm welding on a boat & there's any risk of fire.
They do have their downsides, though, and the one to be aware of is
that they're not good for oil or fat fires, especially the good old
chip pan fire, because they can make matters worse by blowing burning
oil around the place.
I agree about the awful mess from dry powder though.
I can categorically state that I will never have a chip pan fire aboard.

I might have a bacon incident, however I would treat that with the
olde-fashioned wet tea-towel approach, rather than empty an extinguisher.
Nicholas D. Richards
2007-01-29 11:39:15 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Uncle Marvo <***@del
etethisbitfortescue.org.uk> writes
Post by Uncle Marvo
Post by Tim Leech
<snip>
Post by Peter Neville
My answer is along the lines of Uncle Marvo, only I used to have CO2
extinguishers onboard. A couple of those and you'd blow the fire out.
When I sold the boat they (extinguishers) went with me not the boat.
Cheers, Peter
CO2 extinguishers are great in their place, and I always have at least
one to hand whenever I'm welding on a boat & there's any risk of fire.
They do have their downsides, though, and the one to be aware of is
that they're not good for oil or fat fires, especially the good old
chip pan fire, because they can make matters worse by blowing burning
oil around the place.
I agree about the awful mess from dry powder though.
I can categorically state that I will never have a chip pan fire aboard.
I might have a bacon incident, however I would treat that with the
olde-fashioned wet tea-towel approach, rather than empty an extinguisher.
Or a fire blanket? Which is I believe the recommended approach to chip
pan fires. I keep one in my kitchen, on the wall in a prominent place,
away from the cooker. Not having a boat, I am not aware of whether they
are required in the BSS.

I am not sure that I would want a chip pan on a boat, too much hot fat
to be knocked over by a passing boater. On land electric chip pans have
a lot to recommend them, they have a thermostat for normal operation,
and in case of thermostat failure a thermal cut out.

I have seen the results of a chip pan fire (13 year comes home, says to
herself, "I fancy some chips", puts chip pan on electric cooker and then
decides she wants a bath). I am glad to say it was not my kitchen.
--
Nicholas David Richards -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"
Tim Leech
2007-01-29 12:10:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:39:15 +0000, "Nicholas D. Richards"
Post by Nicholas D. Richards
etethisbitfortescue.org.uk> writes
Post by Uncle Marvo
Post by Tim Leech
<snip>
Post by Peter Neville
My answer is along the lines of Uncle Marvo, only I used to have CO2
extinguishers onboard. A couple of those and you'd blow the fire out.
When I sold the boat they (extinguishers) went with me not the boat.
Cheers, Peter
CO2 extinguishers are great in their place, and I always have at least
one to hand whenever I'm welding on a boat & there's any risk of fire.
They do have their downsides, though, and the one to be aware of is
that they're not good for oil or fat fires, especially the good old
chip pan fire, because they can make matters worse by blowing burning
oil around the place.
I agree about the awful mess from dry powder though.
I can categorically state that I will never have a chip pan fire aboard.
I might have a bacon incident, however I would treat that with the
olde-fashioned wet tea-towel approach, rather than empty an extinguisher.
Or a fire blanket? Which is I believe the recommended approach to chip
pan fires. I keep one in my kitchen, on the wall in a prominent place,
away from the cooker. Not having a boat, I am not aware of whether they
are required in the BSS.
I am not sure that I would want a chip pan on a boat, too much hot fat
to be knocked over by a passing boater. On land electric chip pans have
a lot to recommend them, they have a thermostat for normal operation,
and in case of thermostat failure a thermal cut out.
I have seen the results of a chip pan fire (13 year comes home, says to
herself, "I fancy some chips", puts chip pan on electric cooker and then
decides she wants a bath). I am glad to say it was not my kitchen.
The chip pan was just an example of a classic fire situation, one
where a CO2 extinguisher might do more harm than good. I wouldn't
fancy having one on a boat, don't even have one in the house. If we
want chips at home, they're oven chips. Not quite as tasty as the real
thing, but much safer, probably healthier, and don't stink the place
out.

Cheers
Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Vintage diesel engine service
JP
2007-01-26 11:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ann
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
: Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable for
use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
Not long after the canal society acquired Bluebell and set about
restoring her, Lidl had a similar offer (not as cheap though) and we
bought extinguishers. A later inspection of them indicated that the
marking on them didn't appear in the BSS guide. I contacted the BSS office
and an intermittent correspondence has been ongoing for a long time now.
The extinguishers were made by Delta and carry an EU marking and the BSS
office tell me they are trying to establish if that marking is to a high
enough standard for the UK. As we are almost at the stage of getting the
boat inspected for its BSS, we bought more fire extinguishers which did
carry the proper markings. We can still carry the Lidl ones but we must
also have sufficient numbers of approved ones over and above them
We are now awash with fire extinguishers which is probably a good thing
but I wish we hadn't been so naive and wasted our money on the lidl
extinguishers.
Ann
You know the world is going crazy when.

a.. The best rapper is a white guy
b.. The best golfer is a black guy
c.. The tallest player in the NBA is Chinese
d.. The Swiss hold the America's Cup
e.. France is accusing the US of arrogance
f.. And Germany doesn't want to go to war
or google brings up 2 and a half million matches for The World Has Gone Mad!
Uncle Marvo
2007-01-26 11:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by JP
You know the world is going crazy when.
a.. The best rapper is a white guy
b.. The best golfer is a black guy
c.. The tallest player in the NBA is Chinese
d.. The Swiss hold the America's Cup
e.. France is accusing the US of arrogance
f.. And Germany doesn't want to go to war
or google brings up 2 and a half million matches for The World Has Gone Mad!
g. People all know who Shilpa Shetty and Jade Goody are, but half of the
country hasn't heard of David Militwonk, nor do they know that he is
(censored - Ed)

Unc
Martin
2007-01-26 11:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
: Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable for
use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
I'll add to that - Why do none of the 150N self inflating life jackets on the
market roll an unconscious wearer in the water onto his back?
--
Martin
Uncle Marvo
2007-01-26 11:23:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:04:04 -0000, "Brian Holt"
Post by Brian Holt
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
Post by Adrian Stott
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable
for use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
I'll add to that - Why do none of the 150N self inflating life
jackets on the market roll an unconscious wearer in the water onto
his back?
The do if you put them on the right way round :-)
Martin
2007-01-26 12:21:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:23:01 -0000, "Uncle Marvo"
Post by Uncle Marvo
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:04:04 -0000, "Brian Holt"
Post by Brian Holt
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
Post by Adrian Stott
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable
for use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
I'll add to that - Why do none of the 150N self inflating life
jackets on the market roll an unconscious wearer in the water onto
his back?
The do if you put them on the right way round :-)
They do if you put them on the *wrong* way round.
--
Martin
Uncle Marvo
2007-01-26 12:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:23:01 -0000, "Uncle Marvo"
Post by Uncle Marvo
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:04:04 -0000, "Brian Holt"
Post by Brian Holt
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
Post by Adrian Stott
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable
for use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
I'll add to that - Why do none of the 150N self inflating life
jackets on the market roll an unconscious wearer in the water onto
his back?
The do if you put them on the right way round :-)
They do if you put them on the *wrong* way round.
That's what I mean. That is the right way. The wrong way. Also they hide the
beer gut when worn properly :-)
Martin
2007-01-26 15:24:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:46:04 -0000, "Uncle Marvo"
Post by Uncle Marvo
Post by Martin
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:23:01 -0000, "Uncle Marvo"
Post by Uncle Marvo
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:04:04 -0000, "Brian Holt"
Post by Brian Holt
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
Post by Adrian Stott
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable
for use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
I'll add to that - Why do none of the 150N self inflating life
jackets on the market roll an unconscious wearer in the water onto
his back?
The do if you put them on the right way round :-)
They do if you put them on the *wrong* way round.
That's what I mean. That is the right way. The wrong way. Also they hide the
beer gut when worn properly :-)
Who needs a self inflating life jacket when the have a flatulent beer gut?
--
Martin
Phil Kempster
2007-01-27 09:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
Who needs a self inflating life jacket when the have a flatulent beer gut?
You know why flatulence smells?

For the benefit of the aurally challenged of course.

PhilK
BSS Office
2007-01-26 11:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
: Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable for
use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants
Visit this site and help save our waterways
http://www.savethewaterways.org.uk/
BSS Office
2007-01-26 11:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
: Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable for
use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants
Google has changed the page format so I hope this works this time!

AFAI can see http://www.anaf.biz/estintori.php?ids=14&extm=18 this site
indicates that all of ANAF dry powder products are carrying the Marine
Equipment Directive attestation mark. BUT anyone considering purchasing
should double check for the mark on the product in the shop just in
case this is an item that was intended for a another market in a
different part of the world.
I was even surprised to see on this Spanish website, the Boat Safety
Scheme logo, even if it is our old pre-2002 version.

Once again, without checking the actual item so please apply buyer
beware principles, it looks as if it is a 5A 34B capacity product.

Regards
***@BSS
Go boating - Stay safe
Martin
2007-01-26 12:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by BSS Office
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
snip
: Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This should restart the thread, are the fire extinguishers suitable for
use on a boat and do they comply with BSS requirements?
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants
Google has changed the page format so I hope this works this time!
AFAI can see http://www.anaf.biz/estintori.php?ids=14&extm=18 this site
indicates that all of ANAF dry powder products are carrying the Marine
Equipment Directive attestation mark. BUT anyone considering purchasing
should double check for the mark on the product in the shop just in
case this is an item that was intended for a another market in a
different part of the world.
I was even surprised to see on this Spanish website, the Boat Safety
Scheme logo, even if it is our old pre-2002 version.
Once again, without checking the actual item so please apply buyer
beware principles, it looks as if it is a 5A 34B capacity product.
http://www.anaf.biz/downloads.php?ids=19

allows you to select country and types of extinguisher - maybe.
--
Martin
BSS Office
2007-02-01 21:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
I have been to Lidl this evening and the extinguisher in my local
branch carries the Marine Equipment Directive logo. It is rated for 5A
34B. In good condition, this meets the BSS minimum requirements.
It may be worth a small note here that one I picked out one from the
rack that was already out of its box. It was dented. I suspect it may
have suffered some rough treatment in situ. It may be worth checking
the condition of the extinguisher before purchase, particularly any
unboxed items. (our condition checks are in the aforementioned chapter
6 of the Essential Guide)

I need to consult my colleagues about the fire blanket before letting
you know about that.

regards
Rob
Nick Atty
2007-02-01 21:55:07 UTC
Permalink
On 1 Feb 2007 13:12:53 -0800, "BSS Office"
Post by BSS Office
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
I have been to Lidl this evening and the extinguisher in my local
branch carries the Marine Equipment Directive logo. It is rated for 5A
34B.
Now that *is* devotion to duty!
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon
Paul Scott
2007-02-01 22:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by BSS Office
Post by Brian Holt
: Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
I have been to Lidl this evening and the extinguisher in my local
branch carries the Marine Equipment Directive logo. It is rated for 5A
34B. In good condition, this meets the BSS minimum requirements.
Only this morning I was talking to a friend who had just bought 3 '5A 34B'
extinguishers for his boat, as he has an exam shortly, and his existing
extinguishers are nearly 9 years old, although in good nick and meet the BSC
requirements.

Of course he has a typical narrowboat, well over 36 ft long, so his new
extinguishers aren't any good, unless he chooses to fit 5 of them, so I'd
recommend everyone check the actual requirements for _their_ boat before
rushing into Lidl...

Paul
Pete C
2007-02-01 23:40:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:34:51 -0000, "Paul Scott"
Post by Paul Scott
Only this morning I was talking to a friend who had just bought 3 '5A 34B'
extinguishers for his boat, as he has an exam shortly, and his existing
extinguishers are nearly 9 years old, although in good nick and meet the BSC
requirements.
Of course he has a typical narrowboat, well over 36 ft long, so his new
extinguishers aren't any good, unless he chooses to fit 5 of them, so I'd
recommend everyone check the actual requirements for _their_ boat before
rushing into Lidl...
From what I can remember, what is needed for a 36ft+ is at _least_ 3
fire extinguishers, of which _3_ must make up the required fire
rating.

So having 4 or 5 to make up the required rating isn't any good.

There are reductions for boats with either no engine or fuel burning
appliances.

This is from memory so please check the guide itself!

IMHO I'd suggest your friend approach the organization doing the BSS
and ask them for BSS advice _before_ the exam proper.

Any potential problems can then be cleared up with them before doing
the BSS. Any extra guidance/clarification can be sought from the BSS
office if necessary.

cheers,
Pete.
Paul Scott
2007-02-01 23:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C
IMHO I'd suggest your friend approach the organization doing the BSS
and ask them for BSS advice _before_ the exam proper.
I did his last BSS exam...

Paul
CS
2007-02-02 07:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C
From what I can remember, what is needed for a 36ft+ is at _least_ 3
fire extinguishers, of which _3_ must make up the required fire
rating.
So having 4 or 5 to make up the required rating isn't any good.
Not quite. The requirement is for 36ft + is a min of 3 extinguishers
having a rating of 5A/34B each but combined must be 21A/144B. So 5
Lidls would do.

I got one - looks fine. Small size so can be discreetly scattered
around vessel. Also picked up a couple of the gas alarms - again look
fine and good loud alarm. 5 year life once activated - as with all
gas alarms sensors degrade over time.
Paul Scott
2007-02-02 11:59:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C
From what I can remember, what is needed for a 36ft+ is at _least_ 3
fire extinguishers, of which _3_ must make up the required fire
rating.
So having 4 or 5 to make up the required rating isn't any good.
According to the guide it is

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BSS_Guide_chap6web.pdf

Paul
Pete C
2007-02-02 14:11:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:59:46 -0000, "Paul Scott"
Post by Paul Scott
Post by Pete C
From what I can remember, what is needed for a 36ft+ is at _least_ 3
fire extinguishers, of which _3_ must make up the required fire
rating.
So having 4 or 5 to make up the required rating isn't any good.
According to the guide it is
http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BSS_Guide_chap6web.pdf
Paul
I contacted the BSS about this in December, and asked for
Post by Paul Scott
....The reason I ask is that when the BSS states 'Min. number of each' 3,
3 or more that add up in total to meet the combined fire rating,
3 or more of which _three_ of them add up to meet the minimum combined
fire rating?
A vessel of 38' requires 3 portable fire extinguishers (PFE) and the
rating must equal 21A/144B if you wish to have further PFE these will be
over the minimum number of extinguishers required for the Boat Safety
Scheme examination.
Does this mean that for a vessel of 38', 5 extinguishers of rating 5A
34B giving a combined rating of 25A 170B would be acceptable for the
BSS?
The combined rating of the minimum number of extinguishers must be
21A/144B.
From the information you have supplied your 5 portable fire
extinguishers (PFE) rated at 5A/34B have a combine rating of 25A 170B.
However, the requirement is for 3 (Three) PFE to meet the combined min
rating of 21A/ 144B you will need to increase the fire rating of a
least 2 PFE to meet the current requirement.
You may wish to consider using two larger PFE with a fire rating of
13A/55B when added to one of the original 5A/34B PFE a combined fire
rating of 31A/144B would be obtained in 3 PFE this would then meet the
Boat Safety Scheme requirements.
So there it is in their words, there must be THREE extinguishers that
add up to the combined fire rating for an >11m(36ft) vessel.

Using 4 or 5 extinguishers to make up the combined fire rating is not
acceptable.

If you don't agree, please contact them via the website for
clarification.


I'd agree that the BSS guide is a bit ambiguous in how it states this
requirement. IMO it could do with one or two 'worked examples' to
illustrate what is _and_ is not acceptable.

I'd also like to see the idea of having only 3 instead of 4 or 5
scrapped, it causes a lot of confusion.

I doubt that having 3 instead of 4/5 extinguishers makes much
difference in reality, it does't take long to pull the pin and trigger
on an extinguisher.

They might be better off requiring a minimum extinguisher size, of
which any number can be used to make up the combined rating.


In any case, the fire brigades advice is always to get out and not
attempt to fight a fire, especially in a confined space where heat and
smoke may incapacitate.

Therefore extinguishers are only really needed to assure escape. If
there are at least two routes of escape from accomodation, I don't
think they should be a requirement as such.

I'd accept that for trip boats or offshore boats, the needs are
different.

cheers,
Pete.
Paul Scott
2007-02-02 18:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C
Post by Paul Scott
You may wish to consider using two larger PFE with a fire rating of
13A/55B when added to one of the original 5A/34B PFE a combined fire
rating of 31A/144B would be obtained in 3 PFE this would then meet the
Boat Safety Scheme requirements.
So there it is in their words, there must be THREE extinguishers that
add up to the combined fire rating for an >11m(36ft) vessel.
I'd agree that the BSS guide is a bit ambiguous in how it states this
requirement. IMO it could do with one or two 'worked examples' to
illustrate what is _and_ is not acceptable.
Thank you for your clarification Pete, and I agree completely - I too
thought it was completely daft to allow more than 3 to add up to the
requirement, therefore I look forward to them urgently amending the wording
of Chapter 6 of the BSS guide, which should obviously state for a 36ft boat
something along the lines of:

'3 extinguishers are required, two of which _must_ be rated 8A 55B, to
provide a total of at least 21A/144B'

However, why give the possibility of different ratings, why not just make
the requirement as follows, with any additional being optional:

'Under 7m (23ft) 2 @ 5A/34B total 10A/68B
7-11m (23-36ft) 2 @ 8A/55B total 16A/110B
Over 11m (36ft) 3 @ 8A/55B total 24A/165B'

In terms of using the extinguisher to aid escape, I would simply go with
bigger boat - bigger distance to exit - therefore more capacity required
from each individual extinguishers. As a mere boat owner I expect we should
all get a letter clarifying this shortly...!

Paul
Pete C
2007-02-02 19:14:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:00:00 -0000, "Paul Scott"
Post by Paul Scott
Thank you for your clarification Pete, and I agree completely - I too
thought it was completely daft to allow more than 3 to add up to the
requirement
It _allows_ more than three, and why not more is better, what isn't
clear is that _only_ three of them count towards the BSS. Maybe it
should explicitly state that only three of them can count.
Post by Paul Scott
therefore I look forward to them urgently amending the wording
of Chapter 6 of the BSS guide, which should obviously state for a 36ft boat
'3 extinguishers are required, two of which _must_ be rated 8A 55B, to
provide a total of at least 21A/144B'
However, why give the possibility of different ratings, why not just make
Whatever they put in the guide, they should get hold of a normal
person(TM) or three and check they can understand what it means
without needing any further explanation.

One thing I'm not keen about the BSS process is that they don't allow
us to see and comment on draft changes.

At least if there's something that looks ambigious in a draft it can
be clarified before the final version is issued. Any draft PDFs could
be clearly watermarked and headed as draft copies.
Post by Paul Scott
In terms of using the extinguisher to aid escape, I would simply go with
bigger boat - bigger distance to exit - therefore more capacity required
from each individual extinguishers.
Where there's only one means of escape past the fire, yes. If there
are two means of escape, the best thing is to head in the opposite
direction to the fire :)

cheers,
Pete.
BSS Office
2007-02-02 14:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by BSS Office
I need to consult my colleagues about the fire blanket before letting
you know about that.
Rob
The fire blanket in the Lidl I visited, is marked to EN 1869:1997.
This accords with our requirements for a blanket to BSEN 1869:1997.
Examiners should pass this blanket if it meets the location check at
6.2.2 on page 6/8 in chapter 6 of the BSS Essential Guide.
It has the facility to be mounted on a wall/door and ao i also take
the opportunity to mention our recommendation to fix the location of
the blanket to allow its rapid use. (page 6/9)

Hope this helps
Regards
***@BSS Office
CS
2007-02-02 15:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Can the BSS Office clarify the FE conundrum at post 35??
Pete C
2007-02-02 19:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
Can the BSS Office clarify the FE conundrum at post 35??
Hi,

You could always contact the BSS via their website, they are usually
pretty prompt at answering queries.

cheers,
Pete.

Uncle Marvo
2007-01-26 10:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
Gas alarm £9.99
Fire blanket £7.99 (don't know whether kite-marked)
First aid kit £14.99
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
etc.
Adrian
Gas alarm sounds good. Is it for gas like propane or gas like CO? I have
more fire extinguishers than I've got wall space for!
JP
2007-01-26 11:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uncle Marvo
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
Gas alarm £9.99
Fire blanket £7.99 (don't know whether kite-marked)
First aid kit £14.99
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
etc.
Adrian
Gas alarm sounds good. Is it for gas like propane or gas like CO? I have
more fire extinguishers than I've got wall space for!
a.. Detects methane, propane and butane gas even in very low concentrations
a.. With loud 85dB alarm and red alert light
a.. Mains operated or with 12V in car power supply
a.. Easy to attach
a.. Supplied with fixings and instructions
a.. Free 3 year manufacturer's warranty
Martin
2007-01-26 12:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by JP
Post by Uncle Marvo
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
Gas alarm £9.99
Fire blanket £7.99 (don't know whether kite-marked)
First aid kit £14.99
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
etc.
Adrian
Gas alarm sounds good. Is it for gas like propane or gas like CO? I have
more fire extinguishers than I've got wall space for!
a.. Detects methane, propane and butane gas even in very low concentrations
A flatulence detector that will embarrass you guests?
--
Martin
Brian J Goggin
2007-01-26 12:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
A flatulence detector that will embarrass you guests?
It depends whose flatulence is in question. Some folk use their own to
embarrass their guests, or so it is said:

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_9415.shtml

But that gift could be useful:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,,1998068,00.html

bjg
Pete C
2007-01-26 19:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
Hi,

If these are 5A 34B's as Rob suggested they might be, I got a couple
of EN3 8A 55B's of Ebay for not too much money:

<http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-Kg-ABC-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-Brand-New-Boxed_W0QQitemZ140079218217QQihZ004QQcategoryZ98854QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>

cheers,
Pete.
Pete C
2007-01-29 20:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
Hi,
If these are 5A 34B's as Rob suggested they might be, I got a couple
<http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-Kg-ABC-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-Brand-New-Boxed_W0QQitemZ140079218217QQihZ004QQcategoryZ98854QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
Oops, scratch that, they don't have the right 'logo' >:(

cheers,
Pete.
Pete C
2007-02-01 15:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian Stott
Starting February 1, Lidl has on sale the following stuff possibly
Gas alarm £9.99
Fire blanket £7.99 (don't know whether kite-marked)
Had a look today, not kitemarked so no good for BSS AIUI. There are
kite marked ones on Ebay for a similar price incl P&P anyway.
Post by Adrian Stott
Fire extinguisher 1 kg powder £4.99
This is an 8A 34B though I didn't take one out of the box to look for
a logo. I could pop in again and have a look tomorrow if anyone wants.

cheers,
Pete.
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