Replacing Narrowboat Windows

[Steve Banfield]

I am currently wondering about replacing the windows on our boat. Most
of them leak slightly (and on some through the fixings it seems), all of
them have had the frames painted (by previous owners, so we have had to
follow suit when trying to smarten the old girl up), and on some the
frames are starting to come apart at the joints.

I am aware that we can change seals, but given that new frames would
improve the look of the boat, I feel that it is worth the expense of new
windows. What is holding me back is the amount of work involved, mostly
no doubt connected with internal woodwork that will be discovered to be
beyond re-use behind the scenes.

I am best leaving it all alone, and just using plenty of silicone/new
rubber seals?


I have liked the look / idea of the windows now available from Worcester
Marine Windows:

http://www.narrowboatwindows.co.uk/home/stype.htm


These are the ones can have the glass replaced easily by metal panels,
and, crucially in terms of work/future leak resistance(?), clamp to the
cabin sides, as opposed to screwed into them. Does anyone have any
experience of them yet, and are they worth using?


Many thanks,


Steve Banfield
nb Woolacott No 1
(currently lurking - officially of course - at Blisworth Arm)

[Hugh Allen]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:45:01 +0100, Steve Banfield

Post by Steve Banfield
I am currently wondering about replacing the windows on our boat. Most
of them leak slightly (and on some through the fixings it seems), all of
them have had the frames painted (by previous owners, so we have had to
follow suit when trying to smarten the old girl up), and on some the
frames are starting to come apart at the joints.
I am aware that we can change seals, but given that new frames would
improve the look of the boat, I feel that it is worth the expense of new
windows. What is holding me back is the amount of work involved, mostly
no doubt connected with internal woodwork that will be discovered to be
beyond re-use behind the scenes.
I am best leaving it all alone, and just using plenty of silicone/new
rubber seals?
I have liked the look / idea of the windows now available from Worcester
http://www.narrowboatwindows.co.uk/home/stype.htm
These are the ones can have the glass replaced easily by metal panels,
and, crucially in terms of work/future leak resistance(?), clamp to the
cabin sides, as opposed to screwed into them. Does anyone have any
experience of them yet, and are they worth using?

I wouldn't use silicon - it doesn't stick as well as it ought and it
doesn't seal well when the cabin shrinks/expands with temperature.

I have very successfully used Denso tape. Very messy to use but it
never dries out and sticks really well. We did 6 windows on a friends
boat a year ago and not a drop of water has leaked in. It will also
take paint.

Years ago when I worked for the Royal Engineers we used it to seal
repairs in riveted aluminium boats.

Hugh

[Uncle Marvo]

Post by Hugh Allen
I wouldn't use silicon - it doesn't stick as well as it ought and it
doesn't seal well when the cabin shrinks/expands with temperature.

I use marine-grade silicon, not the rubbish you buy in B&Q. Clear. You have
to do the windows up like you do a cylinder head, and fill the rivets with
silicon as well. That was also the recommendation from the manufacturers,
Caldwells, who agree with me that the people who "built" my tub should be
killed with blunt forks.

This silicon defence probably doesn't apply to the OP's ones as they are of
different fitting though.

Silicon makes excellent glue, for instance as tile adhesive, and it has
"give" which normal cement doesn't.

And it smells nice.

[Steve Atty]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:45:01 +0100, Steve Banfield

Post by Steve Banfield
I have liked the look / idea of the windows now available from Worcester
http://www.narrowboatwindows.co.uk/home/stype.htm
These are the ones can have the glass replaced easily by metal panels,
and, crucially in terms of work/future leak resistance(?), clamp to the
cabin sides, as opposed to screwed into them. Does anyone have any
experience of them yet, and are they worth using?

I saw a boat with these in last week and they looked quite good. The
only thing that seems a bit odd is that the catch that the windows
drop back onto seems to be held in with a screw (well it has a slotted
head) and that the screw head can be accessed from outside the boat
when the window is open..

If it really is a screw then its a very easy way to break into a boat!

Steve

[Steve Banfield]

Post by Steve Atty
I saw a boat with these in last week and they looked quite good. The
only thing that seems a bit odd is that the catch that the windows
drop back onto seems to be held in with a screw (well it has a slotted
head) and that the screw head can be accessed from outside the boat
when the window is open..
If it really is a screw then its a very easy way to break into a boat!
Steve

I must admit it had occured to me if the glass lifts out, then it can be
lifted out (awkwardly) from the outside as well, albeit only if the
window is left open. And it does seem to be a screw fitting on the
website images!

But they seem to be available with small upper hopper sections, so they
would be more secure. That said, anyone wanting to break in could just
break the glass in the first place, so maybe it's not a big issue?

Steve Banfield

[Uncle Marvo]

Post by Steve Banfield
I must admit it had occured to me if the glass lifts out, then it can be
lifted out (awkwardly) from the outside as well, albeit only if the window
is left open. And it does seem to be a screw fitting on the website
images!

On mine the glass will come out when open, but they only open from the
inside. You can't get the glass out from the outside either, because they
open inwards.

Post by Steve Banfield
But they seem to be available with small upper hopper sections, so they
would be more secure. That said, anyone wanting to break in could just
break the glass in the first place, so maybe it's not a big issue?

Boats are the easiest thing in the world to break in to. They usually
require a simple angle grinder to take off the hasp on the door. Unlike
houses, factories etc, where you have to go through all the complication of
kicking a door in. You need neighbours to effectively stop burglars, or have
a tiller pin by the bed for those dark nights when the pikeys come ... oooo
er.

[Tony Brooks]

I am currently wondering about replacing the windows on our boat. Most of
them leak slightly (and on some through the fixings it seems), all of them
have had the frames painted (by previous owners, so we have had to follow
suit when trying to smarten the old girl up), and on some the frames are
starting to come apart at the joints.
I am aware that we can change seals, but given that new frames would
improve the look of the boat, I feel that it is worth the expense of new
windows. What is holding me back is the amount of work involved, mostly
no doubt connected with internal woodwork that will be discovered to be
beyond re-use behind the scenes.
I am best leaving it all alone, and just using plenty of silicone/new
rubber seals?
I have liked the look / idea of the windows now available from Worcester
http://www.narrowboatwindows.co.uk/home/stype.htm
These are the ones can have the glass replaced easily by metal panels,
and, crucially in terms of work/future leak resistance(?), clamp to the
cabin sides, as opposed to screwed into them. Does anyone have any
experience of them yet, and are they worth using?
Many thanks,
Steve Banfield

Be aware that those clamps need to fit against the cabin side on the inside
of the boat (or so WMW told me at Birmingham). There is a very good chance
that there are rough wooden batons around the window aperture with filler
prices in the lower corners. These batons are usually used to secure
whatever the inner cabin lining is made of (ply/T&G etc). Often the windows
are secured by being screwed into these batons.

FWIW When I exposed the batons on two windows on my 16 year old boat this
year (Re-lining cabin) and they were in good order - try prodding them from
around the window aperture with a screwdriver).

If your windows are screwed in you have to think about what you will do if
any screws snap. My boat uses self tapping screws and one has snapped. I
doubt you will drill self tappers out (too hard) and I have grave doubts
about the feasibility of using clamp in windows if this method of batons
around the aperture has been used unless you go in for internal rebuilding.

If the aperture has been cut a bit oversize you may be able to move the new
window in the aperture enough so the fixing holes clear the old screws
(ground down flush by then). You may be able to either specify the screw
hole placing on the new windows or have them supplied un-drilled and thus
ensure the holes are clear of the new screws.

WMW suggested that the best window to use was one of the "coloured" ones
that have a rubber finishing strip covering the screw holes because they
have a larger flange and the holes are further "out".

Eventually I expect I will have to do the job. My plan is to have undrilled
windows supplied. I will drill and countersink the cabin side so I can
retain the batons using screws that are flush or slightly below the surface
and then drill and tap the cabin side to accept good quality stainless
machine screws (preferably with a flanged head, if I can find any, so I can
use a nylon washer beneath each head to both seal and electrically isolate
the aluminium from the steel to a degree.

Please let us know how you get on, the problems and how you overcame them.

[Steve Banfield]

Post by Tony Brooks
Be aware that those clamps need to fit against the cabin side on the inside
of the boat (or so WMW told me at Birmingham). There is a very good chance
that there are rough wooden batons around the window aperture with filler
prices in the lower corners. These batons are usually used to secure
whatever the inner cabin lining is made of (ply/T&G etc). Often the windows
are secured by being screwed into these batons.

I had though of that - one of my reasons for not doing the job yet.
However, where there have been slight leaks (possibly over a few years,
under a previous owner), the interior wood is starting to rot. An
internal re-line is at least therefore expected, if not welcomed!

Post by Tony Brooks
If your windows are screwed in you have to think about what you will do if
any screws snap. My boat uses self tapping screws and one has snapped. I
doubt you will drill self tappers out (too hard) and I have grave doubts
about the feasibility of using clamp in windows if this method of batons
around the aperture has been used unless you go in for internal rebuilding.

Many of the fixing screws have badly damaged heads - no doubt from a
previous attempt at leak fixing. Years of overpainting, and possibly
corrosion / metal reaction have not helped removal - another reason for
delaying the job. So new fixing holes at least, once the windows have
beeen coerced out by other methods!

Post by Tony Brooks
Please let us know how you get on, the problems and how you overcame them.

We are going to try one window first - one with only short sections of
internal lining (all t&g planks) to disturb - and see what happens.
Maybe even before the end of summer...

Thanks for the advice Tony, much appreciated!

Steve Banfield

[Graham Brooker]

"Tony Brooks"

Post by Tony Brooks
If your windows are screwed in you have to think about what you will do if
any screws snap. My boat uses self tapping screws and one has snapped. I
doubt you will drill self tappers out (too hard) and I have grave doubts
about the feasibility of using clamp in windows if this method of batons
around the aperture has been used unless you go in for internal rebuilding.

I just removed all my aluminium (caravan style frame) windows and scraped
out the leaking mastic/silicone or whatever was not working properly. I
reinstalled them all as I could not face getting new ones made and sealed
them using proper marine rubbery sealant and NOT silicone.

Now the main problem was removing the screws. There were a mixture of self
tapping into the steel cabin and wood screws into the wooden battens. Many
screws would not budge and simply pulled through the aluminium frames making
the holes a little larger. I made a decision not to worry about this and
simply removed them with a mole wrench or ground them off once the window
was out and then used a punch to knock them through to the inside and pick
out the bits. I cleaned up the holes by drilling them out to a larger
suitable size. I then used pop rivets for all the windows as these can
easily be drilled out later and ground off and punched out if anything needs
to be removed again. Even the best stainless steel self tappers will get
stuck as they go into rusty steel holes.

The drawback is that the rubber strips cannot be used (most were missing
anyway). At least all the enlarged damaged holes are now covered over by
the rivet head which does not look too bad once you forget they are there.

Graham